You Starve ... Glory Be To God?

In three days, we’ve had 250 people either swallowed by the earth or consumed by fire. And then the next day, we all got zombified and 14,700 people died. And now we’re playing with sticks. It just, it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. Hey, everybody, I’m Dan McClellan.

And I’m Dan Beecher.

And this is Data Over Dogma, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion and we combat the spread of misinformation. About the same. At least as long as our internet’s working, right, Dan?

We are. We are slaves to the World Wide Web.

Yes, we are. We had some technical difficulties getting started, but you don’t care about any of that. We’re here now. That’s.

We had some time. I mean, our YouTube viewers will know that we had some type of technical difficulties last week as well. And that’s just a thing that happens, people. We’re not, we’re, we’re not millionaires over here with their fancy whatevers. I don’t know what you have recording in person and stuff, man.

All right. Well, we got a fun show coming up. I’m excited about it. We got two things. So last week, at some point, we talked about Numbers 17.

Which was a fun, a fun discussion. But when we discussed it, I was like, but what about Numbers 16? Because I had read that and it felt like it informed it, but also it felt like a big story that maybe we could just do on its own. So we’re going to, we’re going to start with Numbers 16. That’s our chapter and verse. And then we’re going to take issue and who daddy it is. We’re Taking Issue. And I believe that most of our listeners, slash viewers will also take pretty severe issue with. With some comments by one Joel Webbon, who is a real peach of a, of a fella. He’s a, he’s a, he’s a pastor, I guess, right? He’s a.

Something like that.

Who. He’s a talking head and a real piece of work. So that will be on the second half of the show. And you’re not going to want to miss that because some fireworks are going fly. But first, let’s, let’s dive into chapter and verse and the chapter and verse. Okay, we’re in Numbers 16 now. And it, this is kind of crazy. This is the, I mean, it’s like the Battle of the Levites. It’s the, it’s, it’s, there’s a bunch of grumbling happening and it is, it’s nuts. So the consequences of grumbling are, I’m just going to say extreme, little harsh. You know, last, last week when Aaron became the priest over everybody, it was, it was done through a nice way.

It was like look, your stick is prettier than everyone else’s stick. And that I think is a lovely way of indicating who should be in charge.

Yeah. It’s following after the Korah episode, however it is. The juxtaposition is a little jarring.

It’s extreme. So we should just talk first about who Korah is. We. We’ve got, we’ve got Korah. That’s K O R A H. It’s not.

C O R A. Korah, Dathan and Abiram.

Well, we’ve also got On. So if we’re starting in Numbers 16:1 and, and here’s where we’re going to start to see that something peculiar is going on here because verse one says now Korah son of Izhar, son of Kohath son of Levi, along with Dathan and Abiram sons of Eliab and On son of Peleth son of Reuben. On disappears from the narrative.

Yeah. On just goes away.

Yeah. There’s no more On. We are off. It is which. Which suggests in the mind of a lot of scholars the composite nature of this story, that we’ve probably got different traditions that were woven together or separated out. And so we are looking at the end result of the accumulation and redaction and editing of a few different stories. And we’re going to get it and we’re going to highlight places where we seem to be getting one story and not another. So yeah, yeah. Re. Take note of that right off the bat. On son of Peleth son of Reuben seems to be there to kind of indicate a connection with Reuben. But then boop, he blips right out of the story. So this is one of the, the only one of the Israelites that Thanos snapped away was On just. He was like I don’t feel so good and then just dust. So that what we get at the end of verse one. But yeah, these, these gentlemen, these brethren took 250 Israelite men, leaders of the congregation, chosen from the assembly, well-known men, and they confronted Moses.

So because.

So that’s a, that’s a mob. 250 is not a small number of people.

Yeah, it’s not like Steve, Bill, Tom and I think this is unfair. No, this is pitchforks and what? Lamps? Torches. That’s what they are. And not the British flashlight, but actual fire torches.

And they come to Moses and they confront him. And this is coming right after Moses is basically rattling off a bunch of legislation. And I think right before this, it was like, yeah, put fringes on your garments. And at this point, these guys were like, that’s it.

You know what?

Fringes on the garments.

I was fine until you fringe. You told me I have to fringe my garments. I’m not into that newfangled fashion.

So they assemble against Moses and Aaron and said, you have gone too far. Now, whether this has to do with fringes on the garments, it’s not clear. Remember, this is composite. All the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the Lord is among them. So why then do you exalt yourselves above the assembly of the Lord? And this is related kind of to what we have later on with Aaron’s budding rod.

Where they’re like, wait a minute, we’re all holy. The Lord is among us all. Why do you get to be in charge?

Yeah, why? Yeah. So this is a question of, like, why aren’t we also valid priests or whatever.

Right. And there this may be a relic of kind of an early confrontation between different priestly schools, because Korah could have been the spokesperson for another priestly school, another Levitical priesthood. So we have the Aaronide, but we have another Kohathite line that descended from Levi that might be asserting the priesthood.

And yeah, because Korah is of the Levite line, just as Moses and Aaron are.

And Moses hears the challenge, falls on his face. Then he spoke to Korah and all his congregation, and now notice it’s Korah and three other dudes. And now it’s only Korah and his congregation.

Right. So it has whittled down significantly.

Yeah. That I picture Moses being like, where’d everybody go? And Korah’s like, what? I swear I had three other guys here.

And he speaks to the congregation, says, in the morning, the Lord will make known who is his and who is holy.

And who will be allowed to approach him. The one whom he will choose will be allowed to approach him. So this is basically like, look, our priests are the ones who are allowed to approach God. So God is going to let us know. And as we talked about last time, it feels kind of like cheating to be like, hey, I’ll go talk to him. He’ll let us know if I’m right or if you’re right. Right. You can’t come see, though. This is all.

I’ll go talk to God, and he’ll tell you how we’re going to determine this through me exclusively.

And so Moses says, here’s what we’re going to do. Take censers. Not. Not like. Not like television sensors.

Right?

Yeah, but the metal things to carry fire in, Korah and all your congregation, and tomorrow, put fire in them and lay incense on them before the Lord. And the man whom the Lord chooses shall be the Holy One. You Levites have gone too far. And this is evidently what Moses is saying to Korah and his congregation.

Right? Yeah.

And I don’t think. Here’s the thing. Okay. So everybody’s gonna bring their little fire holders to the tent. And that all seemed like, okay, we’re prepping for a miracle. I did not have any idea how Game of Thrones this.

Yeah. Because he doesn’t really say, here’s how it’s going to be done. He’s just like, oh, you’ll know.

Bring this. And by the time whatever happens happens, we’ll all know who has been chosen.

Yeah. Which does not bode well. If you’re watching this on TV, you’re like, ooh, it’s coming for them. You know, what’s happening now? Then Moses said to Korah, hear now, you Levites, is it too little for you that the God of Israel has separated you from the congregation of Israel to allow you to approach him in order to perform the duties of the Lord’s tabernacle and to stand before the congregation and serve him? He has allowed you to approach him and all your brother Levites with you. Yet you seek the priesthood as well. Therefore, you and all your congregation have gathered together against the Lord. What is Aaron, that you rail against him? And now we have this thing where it says, Moses sent for Dathan and Abiram, sons of Eliab, but they said, we will not come. They were there.

According to verse one, they. He. Korah grabs the other guys and they all. They are chosen. Along with These guys took 250 Israelite men. They assembled against Moses. But now they’re not there. And Moses had only been talking to Korah.

I took that to mean that we are a little further along in the story, and everybody’s gone back to get their censers or whatever. And then. And then these guys are like, you know what? I’ve seen Game of Thrones. I’m not coming.

Yeah, the. It is. It is peculiar. And there. There are scholars who have. Who have accounted for this in a variety of ways. Most commonly, I think you. There’s an idea that there are either two or three different revolt tales that are being consolidated into one.

Right.

One involves Korah. One, at least one involves Dathan and Abiram. And so Moses sends for them. They say, we will not come. Is it too little that you have brought us up out of a land flowing with milk and honey to kill us in the wilderness, that you must also lord it over over us? It is clear that you have not brought us into a land flowing with milk and honey or given us an inheritance of fields and vineyards. Would you put out the eyes of these men? We will not come suddenly where the. Putting out the eyes come from? Yeah, that’s. That were. That’s a little more Game of Thrones than things had. Had been up to this point. But also their complaint seems very different now. Right, because now it’s suddenly about. Yeah. Now their complaint is about leaving Egypt, and we’ve not yet come to a land flowing with milk and honey. Although there are scholars who have argued that the Hebrew here is a little squirrely.

And you could understand it to actually be saying, you have not brought us to a land flowing with milk and honey, but to an inheritance of fields and vineyards where we’ve got to toil for our food. Whereas the idea of land flowing with milk and honey, the Hebrew word there actually has more to do with, like, gushing. The land produces it naturally.

This big rock candy mountain.

Yeah. This is where there’s just milk and honey just coming up out the ground.

Right.

All you need is a bucket.

Which is funny because they seem to be indicating that they came from a land of milk and honey.

Yeah. Which is an odd meme. Being under brutal enslavement.

The weird way of. Of. Of. Of envisioning the. You’re like two years ago being slaves.

Yeah, yeah. And. And there are some folks who think that maybe this story is actually set in the land of Israel. Like, they’ve already gotten there, and they’re complaining that the land isn’t good enough. That’s. That an argument that’s been offered as well.

This is the worst Israel I’ve ever been to. I object.

Yeah. But. But if. If the idea is a. Look, it’s fields and vineyards. We have to toil and work. And, you know, you try to get this stony ground to produce stuff Moses was very angry, said to the Lord, pay no attention to their offering. I have not taken one donkey from them, and I have not harmed any one of them. So Moses. It’s kind of like Moses is in front of the temple and knows that God is listening.

And it’s like, that’s a lie. That’s a lie. To turning around and yelling into the. Into the doorway of the temple.

Daddy’s lying.

And. And Moses said to Korah, as for you and all your congregation, be present tomorrow before the Lord. You and they and Aaron. Wait a minute. It’s back to Korah.

Yeah. Oh, right.

Yeah. So Dathan and Abiram. Oh, so, like, we. We could understand this to mean that he sent for them and they sent a message. And maybe Korah was like, here’s what they said. But. But yeah, we. It is a little peculiar. Be present tomorrow before the Lord. You and they and Aaron. And let each one of you take his censer and put incense on it. And each one of you present his censer before the Lord. 250 censers. You also. And Aaron each his censer. So they did it. They laid incense on them, and they stood at the entrance of the tent of meeting with Moses and. And Aaron. Then Korah assembled the whole congregation against them at the entrance of the tent of meeting, and the glory of the Lord appeared to the whole congregation. So. So Korah’s there again. It was supposed to be everybody, but who knows what’s going on here? Apart from the. The conclusion that this is actually Korah all by himself in one version of the story, and then the other two in another version of the story.

Right.

Then the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying, separate yourselves from this congregation so that I may consume them in a moment. Yeah. So, I mean, it’s just.

And what do you. What does that even look like? Let’s just say that that’s what happened. Aaron and Moses are like, you know what? We left something back at our place. Yeah, we’re gonna run real quick. My censer. This is not my good censer. Why did I even bring this censer? What am I doing?

Yeah, so they come back out and they said, God said we should stand over there.

Yeah, you guys stay where you are. It’s cool. We just have to pay.

They fell on their faces and said, oh, God, the God of the spirits of all flesh shall one person sin. And you become angry with the whole congregation. And the Lord spoke to Moses, speak to the congregation, saying, get away from the dwellings of Korah, Dathan, and. And Abiram. So Moses got up and went to Dathan and Abiram. The elders of Israel followed him. He spoke to the congregation. So once again, part of the narrative is identifying three men. And then the narrative goes on to have Moses only engaging with a fraction of that.

Right.

He spoke to the congregation saying, turn away from the tents of these wicked men and touch nothing of theirs, or you will be swept away for all their sins. So they got away. Now Moses is like, move back. Move back.

Right, yeah. It is nice of Moses and Aaron to be like, hey, maybe you don’t have to kill all of these people just because these three guys gathered them up or whatever.

So from. From you to the left, go that way.

We’re gonna get to. From you to the left, go that way. In. In the second part of this story. Yeah, but. Yeah, okay, so.

So they. They got away from the dwellings of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram and Dathan and Abiram came out and stood at the entrances of their tents together with their wives, their. Their children and their little ones. Where’s Korah? So now it’s Korah who’s like, I’m not coming out of my room. And. And Korah’s wife on the other side of camp.

He was. They have to go. You have to go. You have to go. You have to do this geographically.

Yeah. So. So Moses said, this is how you shall know that the Lord has sent me to do all these works. It has not been of my own accord. If these people die a natural death or if a natural fate comes to them, then the Lord has not sent me. But if the Lord creates something new and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into Sheol, then you shall know that these men have despised the Lord. So gauntlet thrown. And we’ve got Dathan and Abiram standing in the. The. At the front of their tents with their. Their. Their youngins huddling around their calves.

I mean, presumably at that moment, the family is all going, wait, what now? Yeah, I’m sorry, There’s something’s going to squeeze me. I. Sheol. Did I hear Sheol? I’m not. I don’t know what’s going on.

Yeah. And as soon as he finished speaking all these words, the ground under them was split apart. The earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, along with their households, everyone who belonged to Korah and all their goods. So Korah is evidently not coming out of his tent. Dathan and Abiram come out of their tents and now the earth swallows up Korah, everyone who belonged to Korah and all their goods. Yeah, but notice who is not said to be swallowed up. Who’s. Who’s not said to be swallowed up here?

Well, it doesn’t say Dathan and Abiram.

It also doesn’t say Korah was swallowed up. It says.

Oh, it says everyone who belonged to Korah.

Yeah. So the. So we have Dathan and Abiram, and it says the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, along with their households, everyone who belonged to Korah and all their goods, which seems like it might be a secondary addition.

Because Dathan and Abiram are the they. Their households. But then it says everyone who belonged to Korah and all their goods. So it’s like, well, we got to throw all of Korah’s stuff into the mix, but not Korah. So they, with all that belonged to them, went down alive into Sheol. The earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly. Here’s the panic. All Israel around them fled at their outcry, for they said, the earth will swallow us, too.

And then. Yeah.

So I think it’s fair to be afraid in that moment. I think that that is a. That is a reasonable response to.

That is a rational fear. Yeah.

Just gulp up a couple of. A whole bunch of families, and then they’re.

They’re. They’re all scattering. And verse 35 says, and fire came out from the Lord and consumed the 250 men offering the incense. So first we’re gonna. We’re gonna eat up all these guys, and then the Lord’s just gonna zap everybody else. Fire from Adonai. Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, tell Eleazar, son of Aaron, the priest, to take the censers out of the blaze, then scatter the fire far and wide, for the censers of these sinners have become holy at the cost of their lives. Make them into hammered plates as a covering for the altar, for they presented them before the Lord, and they became holy. Thus they shall be a sign to the Israelites.

Yeah. That’s so weird. Yeah. I’m assuming that this was an etiology for how they’re. How the altar got covered in metal.

Yeah, it does seem like an episode of Bob’s Burgers where they were like, how did this happen? And then we’ve got this weird mashup of some movie from the 1980s and this. This thing that we have here.

But, I mean, we. We just glossed right over the fact that the 250 dudes just got burned.

Like, this is crazy.

And then.

And it. And it came to pass that the Mother of dragons did emerge.

Her own censer.

And she was naked. But. But here’s a weird thing. Numbers 26:10. Let me pull up 26:10. So we’re in 16 here.

But we have in Numbers 26:9 says the descendants of Eliab, Nemuel, Dathan, and Abiram. These are the same Dathan and Abiram, chosen from the congregation who rebelled against Moses and Aaron in the congregation of Korah when they rebelled against the Lord and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up along with Korah. So here we have the statement that Korah was taken down to Sheol when that congregation died, when the fire devoured 250 men and they became a warning notwithstanding, the sons of Korah did not die. So we’ve got. We’ve got another contradiction, because Numbers 16 says, everyone that belonged to Korah died.

Doesn’t explicitly say Korah died. Numbers 26 says, no, Korah died, but the sons of Korah did not die.

They were in camp.

That’s a. Well, it’s a head scratcher until you notice something about the book of Psalms. You’ve got. Yes.

We’re bouncing all over the place.

Yes. You’ve got in the book of Psalms, a number of psalms that are dedicated or have Korah’s name associated with them. The Korahites.

There are 11 Psalms that are Korahite psalms.

Oh, okay.

So Psalms like 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, and 49. And then 84, 85, 87, and 88. So most of them are from book two. But let me. Let me pull up Psalms 42. I want to see exactly what the Hebrew was, because I. Because I thought it was Bene Korah. Yeah. Livne Korach. So that is sons of Korah. So Numbers 16 says. Doesn’t say anything about Korah. He might have snuck out the back for all we know. But it says everyone that belonged to Korah. They. They took the dirt nap. But then Numbers 26 says Korah took the dirt nap, but all of Korah’s sons did not. And that this may be somebody later on trying to be like, well, we got all these psalms.

You guys know that there is a whole group. Korahites. Right. Kind of have to account for them.

Yeah, we gotta do something about that. So. And. And I think this may be a vestige or a product of the fact that when we see names that are similar. We like to just assume they’re the same person. That happens all the time.

Particularly in apologetics like the book of Revelation written by a dude named John. I bet that’s the same John that wrote the Gospel of John. Or that’s the same John that’s the apostle. Well, nothing indicates that. You just kind of made that up. And so here they’re probably thinking, ah, that’s. That must be the Korah from this story over here. But didn’t they all die? What if we said they didn’t all die? Yeah, great idea. Nobody will pick up on that.

That. Yeah, because there couldn’t be two Korahs. That’s too confusing.

Yeah, that’s just. That’s right out. Two Korahs is right out.

Yeah, and. And we also might have. Because Korah, the Korahites are. Are another Levite strand. Levite family. There. There might have been people who were ministering in their priestly functions, who were of the Aaronide clan that were like, yeah, this is a. This is a Korahite altar cover. Well, why aren’t. Why aren’t Korahites ministering? Well, let me tell you a story about these Korahites, including On. But forget about On, On is not relevant to the rest of the story. Yeah. Ritual objects that are. That. They’re probably just accounting for why these ritual objects are here that had some kind of association with a Levitical group that’s no longer operating. Maybe that’s what’s going on.

Yeah. So, okay, so they took the. The censers and they pounded them and they made them into a covering for the altar as a reminder, According to verse 40, to the Israelites, that no outsider who is not of the descendants of Aaron shall approach to offer incense before the Lord so as not to become like Korah and his congregation, just as the Lord had said to him through Moses. Now that, to me, all of that, the burning of the dudes, the swallowing by the earth of the people and stuff, you would think that that would be just absolutely sufficient to get the point across. I don’t even see the need for the stick trick in the next chapter. Yeah, it doesn’t make any sense that we need anything more. But verse 41 says, on the next day, it’s not like 10 years later they forgot.

And they were like, on the next day. So what happens?

Well, the whole congregation of the Israelites rebelled against Moses and Aaron, saying, you have killed the people of the Lord. So it’s not like they forgot this happened. They remember this happened. They’re just like, they’re just. We’re not gonna, we’re not gonna stand for this.

You can’t, you can’t just kill everybody. Yeah. And, and, and by the way, it’s Moses and Aaron that, that did this, not God, apparently.

Yes. And you, you can’t just kill all these people just because they challenge your authority or I challenge your authority.

Right. Yeah.

What do you think is going to happen to you then? Then Moses and Aaron came to the front of the tent of meeting. I would not go if, if they were like, hey, everybody, that Moses wants us at the front of the tent of meeting. I’d have been like, no, you tell.

Me what they said. I’ll be over here.

Yeah. Moses and Aaron came to the front of the tent of meeting. The Lord spoke to Moses saying, get away from this congregation so that I may consume them in a moment. And they fell on their faces. Moses said to Aaron, take your censer, put fire in it from the altar and lay incense on it and carry it quickly to the congregation and make atonement for them. For wrath has gone out from the Lord. The plague has begun. So, yeah, and that’s.

And this one, this isn’t Covid. This is a very fast plague because it is literally taking people as we speak. Like, Aaron grabs his censer and runs out into the middle of the assembly and it’s literally happening. And he’s like, ah, you guys get over here, come here. Yeah, let me censer at you. And then I don’t. And I don’t know what he does. He put on the incense and made atonement for the people. I don’t know, like, what that ends up looking like.

Well, it seems like that should, should be a specific kind of a sacrifice, a specific offering, but it doesn’t really tell us exactly what’s going on here. So. But yeah, so he does that and then stands between them and.

Yeah, this is when it gets like, it gets very walking dead or something because everybody’s suddenly infected and it’s just like the infection just moving through the crowd at rapid speed. And he, he. And so he stands between the dead and the living. And the plague was stopped.

Yeah. So I’d like to see a dramatization of this, a movie where Moses falls on his face and is like, Aaron, get the censer.

You gotta get out there, man. Begun.

And he comes out and he’s just disoriented. And there are zombies over here and there are healthy people over here, and he’s got to run out in between.

People dropping like flies. Yeah, it’s just crazy.

And then those. It says 14,700 died.

14,000. Almost 15,000 people died from this plague. That is. That’s not a small number. And why were they all standing together? That’s so big.

Well, yeah. And, you know, Aaron cannot really. One man can’t really stand in between.

14, roughly.

Well, no. 14,000 on one side.

Oh, right. Yeah, yeah.

So almost 30,000 people in. Aaron’s like, no, get over. No, no, I’m. I. My hands won’t go any wider. Like, he’s like. They. You can’t hear. At some point, you’re like, what’s that guy doing? I can’t hear him. He’s too far away. And you don’t.

You just die? Why did you just die? I don’t know. Yeah.

Oh, I’m supposed to move over. Yeah, it’s. It is. Somebody has a very vivid imagination here.

And then when the plague stopped, Aaron returned to Moses at the entrance of the tent of meeting. That’s. That’s kind of. That’s the. Everything happens at the entrance of the tent of meeting. That’s where the. The bad news comes again. If. If I were in that congregation, you would never see me at the entrance of the tent of meeting. No, I would be standing.

Nor. Nor again. I just have. I will reiterate. The next chapter doesn’t need to happen if. If I’m anywhere near this. Like.

Yeah, yeah.

Like. Like, it’s been decided. We don’t. The stick trick is cute and all, but we don’t need it because 14,000 of us died, and Aaron saved the rest of us. So we’re good? Yeah, I think we’re good.

So it’s like, look, we’ve had. In three days, we’ve had 250 people either swallowed by the earth or consumed by fire. And then the next day, we all got zombified, and 14,700 people died. And now we’re playing with sticks. It just. It doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.

It’s an anticlimax, if we’re being honest. That’s a. That’s a big come down.

Yeah. And every time Moses says, so, here’s the way it is. The people all got to be like. Because you say so, and it’s like, have you not paid attention? Are you not entertained?

Where were you for all of the things?

Because. Yeah. All right. I think. Yeah, it is a mess. That’s good for Numbers 16. That’s a wrap for Numbers 16 for now, I think. So let’s move on to Taking Issue. So our little buddy Joel Webbon, he’s a Christian nationalist. That he is overtly, that is. That is a self-applied title for him. Christianity is a big deal for him and he feels, he has a very strong sense of what Christianity is and what it should do, what. What the church believes and should believe. This is the same guy who in clips I’ve seen recently has said things like women shouldn’t be allowed to vote.

Right.

And. And also women. Yeah, he’s got a lot to say about women. Not a fan. Well, or he’s a fan of women as long as they. Hush. Just a shh. Yeah, please be quiet. Is his, his main thing for women? They shouldn’t be allowed to speak in public forums or be politicians or any of that sort of stuff. Yeah, but the clip.

He even said that when women got the vote, that was a vote stolen from him as a man.

That’s right.

So that’s right.

He. He feels like his vote was diluted by half or something like that. Yeah, yeah. And he’s also claimed that his wife dutifully votes as he instructs her to do. But he’s not in the booth. We don’t know what she’s doing anyway. Anywho, Joel. That’s not what we’re talking about this time. This time Joel had an interesting thing to say. Do you want to. Do you want to read us some of.

So his clips.

He. He has this Right Response Ministries and he does. I don’t know if they’re podcasts or just shows or whatever, but he records himself saying inflammatory things so he can get attention.

Yeah. And we are giving him that.

But there, there’s about a 60 something second clip of him saying the following. If we ever come to a point where the state is not actually able to meet the physical needs of those who are impoverished in our society today, then the church will be up against a Herculean task. And right off the bat I just want to point out this would seem to acknowledge that taking care of the poor is something the church is not.

Not equipped for.

Not equipped for. And this seems to recognize that that is the appropriate purview of the state.

Right.

Which conflicts with so many Christian nationalist arguments about how. No, Jesus was only talking about individual responsibility to take care of the poor. When it comes to state responsibility. That’s not on. That’s on the church, that’s not on the government.

And they talk about that constantly. That it is the church that. Yeah, don’t use my tax dollars to take care of the poor and, and the, the needy and the sick or whatever use that. That’s the church’s job.

Tithing. You’re supposed to do it. They’re not doing it.

Yeah, well, and the second you say okay, then church do it. He says, well, they can’t. So, so anyway, go on with, with what he, what he has to say.

But one thing that the church has to do is tell modern feminist pagan women no. They have to say no. So if there’s a woman who is elderly, but she chose by her own volition because she hates the patriarchy and she hates Christ, she hates traditional marriage, all these different things. She’s 65 years old with blue or purple hair. She has no children, not because she couldn’t conceive, but because she was on SSRIs and birth control her entire life of her own volition. If that time ever comes and she is unemployable and she made bad financial decisions, she’s fallen on hard times, our bloated welfare state is no longer operational, then the church needs to be able to look at her and say, you starve, you starve. Glory be to God, you starve.

Which is the worst possible version of free at last, free at last. Great God, thank God Almighty, I’m free at last. Yikes. Just indeed the scariest, the weird. Like, first of all, I like that he has painted this picture of a quote, elderly. Look, people, I don’t know how young Joel Webbon is. He’s younger than I am. But 65 is not elderly. Can we agree that if she’s 65, she is not elderly, but he, but this 65 year old purple haired lady who has no kids, which is apparently a huge, hugely offensive thing to him. Yeah, he’s not okay with that at all. Yeah, he is willing to let her starve.

Yeah. Which is, which is bizarre because, like, he never talks about men in this way. No, it’s always got. Because he, and, and he starts it off by, by targeting feminist pagan women. And when, when he says pagan, he doesn’t mean like Wicca women. He doesn’t, he doesn’t mean actual pagans. He means atheists, agnostics, the nones, people who are just not interested in his brand of Christianity.

Yeah, I’m guessing that he would apply the word pagan to a Hindu or a Buddhist or whatever.

Well, yeah, yeah, 100%. But it’s, it’s just somebody who’s not his brand of Christianity because if you’re not doing it right, then you’re doing it pagan because everything is religion, and therefore anything that is not my Christianity is. Is pagan. But, yeah, this is like, you can just tell he has this seething hatred for. For women who have blue or purple hair and who are. Who are childless because they have chosen to be childless and who are not married and. And all of this stuff. Like, nothing, nothing gets under his skin more than a woman with agency.

Right. Yeah.

Like that. Just. That will not. This aggression will not stand in Joel Webbon’s world.

What’s amazing to me is that he, like, I mean, we’re gonna get to this. You’re on your way to this. But the fact that he is willing to say this. He, you know, he calls up the image of the least palatable human he can imagine.

I’m amazed he didn’t make her trans or whatever. But he calls up this image of this woman for whom he has nothing but disdain. But then he makes an argument that must therefore, then be applied to a bunch of other groups of people for whom he has less and less disdain. And he has set up a system where he has to draw a line somewhere.

Yeah. Because who. Who, like, what color?

If she’s got dark hair and she’s only in her 40s.

Right.

And she’s been on SSRIs and birth control and is childless, does she starve? If it’s a dude, does he starve? Like purple.

But she did have kids.

Yeah. She’s a single mother. Maybe. Yeah, there’s. And, yeah, it is ridiculous. But the first thing that comes to my mind when I hear this is the parable of the Good Samaritan.

And the. The. The story of, you know, the. Jesus says the two great commandments, Love God and love your neighbor. And then the lawyer sneers, who is my neighbor? And. And Jesus doesn’t say, everybody’s your neighbor, but Jesus says, let me tell you this story about a Samaritan who went out of his way to help an Israelite who had fallen on hard times and who was treating someone like a neighbor. Was it the. The Levite and the others who walked by on the other side of the road?

Was it Joel Webbon who said, ick, and crossed the street?

Yeah. Not my monkeys, not my circus. Or is it the Samaritan, the person you hate? And. And it was very specific, the reason that Jesus chose to talk about the Samaritan according to the narrative. And that’s because the Samaritans were hated. They were loathed by the. The folks of that day at least within the universe that the author of the Gospels is, is constructing. And so like if you wanted Joel to paint his picture of his Samaritan, it would be a 65 year old blue haired single lady.

Right?

Like that, that if Jesus came down and, and was like, Joel, dude, let me tell you a story about a 65 year old blue haired lady who didn’t have any kids and fell on hard times. Like, that’s the Samaritan. And, and Joel is like, man, they get to starve. Glory to God, they’re gonna starve.

And this, and so this flagrantly violates the, the, the entire reason for the parable of the Good Samaritan. Like Jesus is like, love your neighbor and Joel Webbon’s. Like, I hope they starve.

Right?

He’s, he’s. I don’t care who my neighbor is. I just hope they starve. Because no, I’m not doing that.

It’s not my fault that she fell on, that she made bad financial decisions and fell on hard times.

Which is, which is the same way that the people who walked by the injured Israelite rationalized away why they were not gonna.

Right.

Do it too.

It’s, it’s a kind of, it’s pretty astounding that the Christian nationalist ethic has really become only us. Only us, yeah.

To the exclusion of some of the central themes of the New Testament. And, and I was thinking about this. It’s really an interesting. It’s, it’s another display of credibility enhancing displays because what you’re doing is you’re actually taking something that is a central identity marker and you’re saying, I care so much about us that I’m going to violate one of our central identity markers in the interest of us.

So it’s a way to, it’s going above and beyond saying the, the identity markers are central and I’m, I’m willing to go out of my way to show how committed I am. He’s saying, I’m willing to go out of my way to show how committed I am to the identity politics, that I’m willing to entirely sever one of the central identity markers and throw it out the window. That’s how much I care about our identity. Over and against the foundation of the identity which is supposed to be following Jesus, who explicitly said, you’re supposed to love everybody.

Yeah. Although I will say so. I thought to myself, I want to try to steel man his argument. I want to try to figure out if I could construct a biblical argument that agrees with Joel Webbon.

I didn’t do a great job. I gotta say. It’s hard. I found some stuff like for instance, Galatians 6:10 says, Let us work for the good of all and especially for those of the family of faith. So to me, that, you know, that was the clearest one where it was just like we prioritize our own people. Yeah. Sort of thing.

But it, it does start with the good of all. Like that’s what it starts with. And presumably blue haired old ladies count in all.

Yeah, but, and this is, and you know, you, you kind of have to go to the Hebrew Bible if you want to try to find examples of, or try to find rationalizations for ignoring certain folks. Unfortunately, even there you’re going to get excoriated by the loudest voices. Because we’ve talked about the prophetic critique many times in the past and this is kind of a perfect example of the prophetic critique which is saying I hate your new moons and your Sabbaths, I do not delight in the blood of bulls and all this stuff. And the whole idea is when you put your piety on display, but are neglecting the poor and the needy and the orphan and the widow and the oppressed and the foreigner, your demonstration of piety becomes sinful. And I hate it.

And this is a textbook example. And he even includes you starve. Glory to God, you starve.

Right.

It’s like he’s like, what would be the best way for me to put on, put on display the fact that I’m going to oppress the poor and the needy while also publicly putting my piety on display so other people can take note of how pious I am.

Like I, it’s, it is a, it is the antithesis, It’s. Yeah, the, the antithesis of, yeah. The antithesis of the prophetic critique sandwich. Like you have, you have just put it on a plate and are serving it up. This is what that’s talking about.

Yeah. Because I mean, even if she, as he put it, hates Christ, which by the way.

No, it’s always his prerogative to declare that and.

Right, right.

Like, oh, I guarantee you he thinks I hate Christ.

Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. There’s, yeah. About half of the believers in, in our country he believes hates, hate Christ.

Right. And I’m a pagan, surely.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don’t even get into what I am. I think, I think he might see me as a 65 year old purple haired lady. I’m not sure. But, but yeah, I mean it’s just It’s. There’s something even, you know, what if she was a member of the church, but she was liberal and she. And, you know, and she disagreed with his theology and she disagreed with his. But she believed in Jesus. Well, at. Where is his line being drawn? Who gets. Who gets to get food and who doesn’t?

And also, does he not see that? He must see it. He must be like, obviously a lot of this is to get clicks. It’s not, it’s not about a theology. It’s about. It’s about making money online or something. But, like, everyone should know that if you say you starve to anyone ever for any reason, you’re a monster.

Like, there’s just no way around that. There’s no way that. That you can look at another human who’s asking, you know, who. Who’s asking for food and. And then say, nope, not you.

Yeah. And. And to even make a point of it, like, I. I would like to put my foot down on the fact that I would like these people to starve. I. Because, like, this. This is. This is kind of mental masturbation for. For Joel, I’m sure, to be like, oh, I want to watch her starve.

Because he’s just coming out and just imagining this scenario where he gets to repeat three times, you starve, you starve, you starve to this hypothetical, this persona that obviously just engenders just a boundless loathing in. In his heart, which is. Which is really just. It’s unfathomable for. For someone who, who wants to get the best out of what’s in the Bible and, and actually try to listen to, again, the voices that are loudest, both in the Hebrew Bible and in the New Testament, the loudest voices are the ones that cry for justice. Then this is not justice. This is vengeance.

This is about getting yours and seeing other people suffer because they disagree with you about the right way to live their life.

And it can’t be about justice because he never claims that this woman did anything bad.

Right.

He never claims that there’s any other than, like, not having children. There’s no offense here. There’s no, There’s. She has committed no sin. She has committed no crimes. She is just. She’s. She’s just tried to treat her depression and, and also tried to make sure that she doesn’t have kids that she doesn’t want. Which. Can I just say, if you don’t want kids, please don’t have kids, that’s fine. There’s nothing wrong with that it’s, it’s bad for everybody when people do that. Getting back to the, to the steel manning of his argument, I did want to point out that 1 Timothy does have a, an actual church welfare policy that, that is exclusionary. He get it gets into a whole thing about widows and who is and isn’t going to count as a widow. I thought that was interesting.

Well, you’re talking about 3:10, right.

This is. No, this is 1st Timothy 5. I think verse 16 says, Let the church not be burdened so that it can assist those who are real widows.

Yeah. Widows on the list. Oh yeah.

It’s just got some, some element like, you know, young widows don’t count. You got to make room for the, for the old widows who are real widows.

Oh yeah, we. We talked about this, this passage. I was thinking of something else. I was. It’s not 1 Timothy 3:10, but I was, I was thinking of the. Those who. Who do not work shall not eat.

Oh, right.

Passage.

Yeah. Which.

Which we’ve also talked about before, which is actually talking about likely is. Is talking about people who are suggesting that they are doing service for the church, therefore they shouldn’t have to have a day job. They should be able to coast on the, the service to the church. Yeah, you’re talking about the, the idea that.

Have to be a certain age so that their family is no longer able to take care of them. And then they have to. They’re on the registry or the list and.

Right. And then there does seem to be a hierarchy where it’s like in 1 Timothy 5:8, there’s a whole thing about if you fail to provide for your own household, then you’ve denied the faith or whatever. So. So like, your, your household is first. Your household. So like, that kind of indicates that, like, you’re only responsible for your people.

Sort of.

But then it’s like. But come on. Like the rest of the Bible is also there.

And also like, you know, just being a human is a thing.

Yeah. And. And the, the author also says that if you have widows in your family, you’re the first line of defense. You assist them so that the church is not burdened. And this lines up with a lot of. Of policies today for Christian congregations and institutions that will say, okay, if you need help, then the first thing you need to do is go ask family. And only if you have none or family cannot help you, then you come to us and we’ll see what we can do.

It does, you know, that you just reminded me of a clip that I saw just today. You know, we’ve talked about Dave Ramsey before on the show, and it was a Dave Ramsey clip. He’s a financial. He’s a Christian financial advisor.

Well, everybody’s a Christian now, whether. Whether they were in the past. That’s where the money is.

Advocating for Christian themes.

It’s. Which is why I don’t have a lot of money. But, but he. So he had a caller come in and, you know, the person who was posting this clip called it the most boomer moment ever. Apologies to our boomer listeners. But it was basically this woman called in and said, hey, I have. I have a lot of money, and I don’t want to give it to my daughters as an inheritance because they went away to school and became socialists, and I don’t want to reward them for that. And I just thought to myself, and of course, Dave Ramsey laughed and laughed about this and was like, yeah, you don’t owe them anything if they’re gonna be like that. Uh, you know, you can just say that they have to be responsible stewards of the money, and they’re not going to be because they believe in giving it away and a free ride and all of this stuff. And it was just.

I, I just feel like there’s this weird thread among conservative Christians of what’s mine is mine that feels completely counter to what I read when I read Jesus. When I read. Yeah, it’s so weird.

Yeah. Well, as we’ve seen, we have a lot of folks who will say, oh, when it says the meek shall inherit the earth, that means you have to be an absolute monster. But just restrain yourself.

Right.

Until. Until you get to let the monster out. Yeah, that’s. There’s. There’s so many attempts on the part of phenomenally selfish people to try to overturn what’s going on, most likely in these passages, because really their concern is looking out for themselves. And they see things like Christianity as a means to an end rather than something that’s supposed to change them in ways they don’t like, in ways that are not as helpful for them. And there’s an argument that I, I’m sure you’ve seen it at some point where people say, if. If Christianity were man-made, why does it go against all of man’s desires? It’s like we. We see Christianity being leveraged precisely to slake man’s desires. Right.

Every single day. So, no, that. That argument does not work. And it’s. It’s a, it’s a very easy little switch to flip, flip to switch. I’m going to get this one of these days. Switch to flip to just say, oh, well, maybe meek actually means you’re an utter monster. You just have control of it. All right, there we go. Now I’m into it. I’m digging it.

Yeah. Thank goodness I figured out what that. What. What that actually means.

Yes. So it actually—Jordan.

Jordan Peterson with no training in. In biblical Greek.

Right, right.

Thank goodness I figured that out.

Yeah. Oh. Suddenly, Christianity becomes a lot less problematic for me, requires much less of me, and allows me to be the same person that I arrived at Christianity as. So, yeah, there’s an awful lot of rationalizing, all of that kind of stuff. And. And Joel here is just rationalizing his own misogyny. Profound. Profound misogyny. Yeah. This. This is a small man thinking small thoughts and saying small words to try to make himself feel bigger.

Well, I. Look, you mentioned the misogyny. I will just say I can steel man his misogyny arguments way better than I can steel man this argument. The. The deny people food argument. I. I feel like he’s got a case, a biblical case for the misogyny.

Yes. The Bible is. Is highly misogynist. So, yeah, you can. You can construct a case that is far more plausible for that than you can for the notion that you should be able to guffaw in the face.

Of needy people of a starving old woman.

Yes. Saying you starve. Glory to God, you starve. Yeah, yeah, there’s. There’s no case to make for that from the Bible. That’s something that relies on the. The just misanthropy of Christian nationalism, which is. Yeah. More and more, I’m gonna get mine, and I want to see you get yours in. In the bad way.

Right.

I want to watch. I want to revel in.

I want to delight in your pain and your suffering. Yeah, yeah. Well, there you go. I mean, pick your poison. If there’s one thing we’ve learned, it’s that all religions can be sort of used in the way that you wish to use it. So I guess you can choose the Joel Webbon way. I highly. We. We. I think it is. I think it’s the official policy of this podcast that. No, no, don’t. Don’t do that.

Don’t do that.

Yeah, we. We. We feed the starving here.

All right, friends. Well, thank you so much for joining us. That’s it. If you would like to become a part of keeping this show rocking and rolling, you can either become a. A member on YouTube or you can go to our Patreon at patreon.com/dataoverdogma and join up there. You’ll get early ad-free versions of every episode as well as you’ll get the, the patrons-only content. If you sign up at the right, at the right level and that patrons-only content happens every week, you can ask us questions and we have to answer it. We cannot back out. So please, please do that if you can. If you can’t just like or subscribe or send us, send the, you know, send this to someone that you think would find it interesting and we appreciate all of that stuff. Thanks so much to Roger Gowdy for editing the show, thanks to Sam Holden for being our right-hand dude and thanks to to all of you for joining us.

We’ll talk to you again next time.

Bye everybody.

You Starve ... Glory Be To God?

Segments

The Transcript

Books

Topics

Tags